Resort casinos will bring down the curtain on performing arts centers

Resort Casinos = Pottersville (5.67 / 3)

Thanks for your note. I never even considered the effect that  event casinos would have on local entertainment venues.
I doubt the state will see any net additional revenue from the casinos and I would expect that the state would probably have to finance them. If one is built in Palmer, I could see it messing with Worcester and the Five College area.

BTW  I've also be pleasantly surprised by how Worcester downtown areas are starting to come back to life.

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by: roarkarchitect @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 16:28:41 PM CST

That's just not true (0.00 / 0)

Wait a minute - there are lots of people who have the same concerns about supporting local businesses and cultural establishments, and some of them are even casino supporters and developers.

For instance, the group that's looking at building in New Bedford told the local paper they won't include a theatre for that very reason:

And it probably would have a theater, too, which Cannon Street Station won't have. Instead, it will funnel its patrons to the Zeiterion Theatre, again just minutes away.

"We won't build a theater" Stern said. "It costs a fortune and it's a loss leader."

"If you can feed off an existing theater in town, that's phenomenal," Gallaway quickly followed up.

While Stern said he didn't envision direct aid, he said the casino could provide the Zeiterion an "operating stream" of revenue by purchasing large blocks of tickets in advance.

Developers also envision "allowing casino patrons to redeem their frequent-player points at neighborhood businesses (to enhance) the value of the rewards program while benefiting neighborhood shop owners.

The whole plan in New Bedford seems to revolve around utilizing local businesses, which in turn saves the developers on building and operating costs.

If you just don't like casinos that's one thing, but if you're really concerned about supporting the arts and local revitalization you should see what's being proposed before you make up your mind.  

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by: 4Scoreand7 @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 19:54:57 PM CST

[ Parent ]

a few things (5.50 / 2)

1) Since when on earth should we trust what any of these people say or think. The industry is notorious for changing the terms later to suit their benefits, or make up for the fact that those rosy projections failed to come true.

2) If it were that scaled down, then it's nothing but a slot parlor, which has even worse impacts on the community than casinos (which is saying a lot) -- and would be disastrous to New Bedford's tenuous downtown. If even 5% of the costumers who go to downtown for arts and restaurants, etc. stopped going, because they spent their money at the casino, it would be a death spiral for the entire downtown and any 'efforts to reduce the community impact' would be moot.

3) Casinos are licensed and the one some have called for in New Bedford is incredibly unlikely to materialize, even if slots were legalized, so your point is doubly moot.

If you want to root for something in the region, nothing will help it more than the train. That's where we have to have our eyes lasered in on in these coming years. We've got to get that train built.

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My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.

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by: Ryepower12 @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 20:04:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I think this deserves a real discussion (5.00 / 1)

1) Saying "the industry" can't be trusted is like saying all Democrats want to tax and spend - it's a stereotype and a generalization that has very little bearing on what might or might not happen in Massachusetts. This is a serious issue with legitimate concerns on all sides, so let's discuss it seriously and be willing to do some homework.

2) Blatantly false. Just because the proposal isn't Foxwoods doesn't mean it will be slots in a strip mall - read the article I posted. (Plus, your numbers assume that the casino wouldn't draw in any new patrons, which is ridiculous. If casinos didn't attract visitors outside the geographic area they wouldn't be profitable.)

3) You seem to have inside information here - sources please?

I also think it's worth mentioning what Troy said in his initial post.

It is critical that we keep what's going well in Massachusetts, rather than gamble it away.

I appreciate that there are places in Massachusetts where things are going well, and people who live there don't see the need for a casino. But there are also places where things aren't going so well, places where things haven't been going so well for a long time. I don't really care whether casinos are legalized or not - but I do hope the people who live in Boston or Springfield or New Bedford or wherever have a say. It's not fair to let outspoken residents of other areas (and on either side of the issue) decide for them.

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by: 4Scoreand7 @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 21:47:54 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I don't know about... (6.00 / 1)

... treating the industry as a stereotype, but I'll tell you what I do trust: that the incentives will play out.

If a casino considered that a theater would make investors more money - I'd feel comfortable thinking that they'd pursue it.  If the same casino thought that the most likely way to get started in the first place was to not have a theater, but that it would otherwise still be very profitable, then I'd guess they might pour some resources into changing the minds of municipal and state decision makers about the theater.  If the casino thought that the best way to get into business and make the most money would be to say there won't be a theater and then find a way to muscle it in after the licenses are secure - I'd put money down that this is what they'd pursue.

The analyzing of self interest works pretty good, but it's extremely good for looking at business entities.  

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

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by: Mr Lynne @ Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 16:44:54 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Speaking of lies (6.00 / 1)

(Plus, your numbers assume that the casino wouldn't draw in any new patrons, which is ridiculous. If casinos didn't attract visitors outside the geographic area they wouldn't be profitable.)

Casinos make the vast majority of their money from a very small group of players within 50 miles of the casino. If you think there's going to be a casino in New Bedford that'll become a newfound mecca of tourism and travel, I have a bridge to sell you. The art scene and restaurants and museums in New Bedford are already starting to bring people in and will bring in more people in the future, when it's more developed -- the casino may actually scare people away. Or, at least, the people who are going there for the casino from the local region won't be the least bit interested in dining at No Problemo or going to the Whaling Museum, and the branding of New Bedford as a casino city would keep people away who would otherwise be interested in its burgeoning, creative economy. Suffice it to say, though, enhancing the local region and getting people to do things outside the casino is not how the casino industry works.

it's a stereotype and a generalization

... that has been proven just about every time. Bring me an example of a casino and I guarantee you I'll find some shady example in which that casino got the state to rewrite its deal, failed to deliver on what was promised or employed some form of corruption to get what it wants. Seriously, have at it. Certainly, it applies to every casino or racino built in Connecticut or Rhode Island.

3) You seem to have inside information here - sources please?

My mysterious inside information is called reading the newspaper. Yeah, fewer and fewer people are doing it these days, but it's not exactly a secret. If you've been reading outside the Standard Daily Times, you'd probably be aware that it's somewhat unlikely the City of New Bedford would get the casino given the limited licenses that would be available (2 in DeLeo's bill) and the strongest "suitors" who will make a bid (likely Palmer and Suffolk Downs), which is a very good thing for the city of New Bedford, a city that I've lived in, think is amazing and would prefer it not be sent back by decades again because of a casino that would prey on what very little, new income is being generated in the city today that wasn't 5 or 10 years ago.
---

Again, if you want a big project that will really help New Bedford, focus on the train. The sooner that gets built, the sooner the city will be infused with a huge amount of development, new jobs and more people wanting to live there. A train would truly create hundreds or even thousands of jobs, without siphoning business off from the local economy.  

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My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.

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by: Ryepower12 @ Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 17:20:26 PM CST

[ Parent ]

2 in DeLeo's bill! (0.00 / 0)

that's terrific!  We don't need three.  Do you have a link to the bill?

"Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."
-President Lincoln

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by: liveandletlive @ Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 17:38:52 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I don't, (6.00 / 1)

Unfortunately, I can't link to the article I read either, because it's SHNS.

However, I'll quote:

HOUSE SPEAKER CALLS FOR TWO CASINOS, FOUR RACINOS: House Speaker Robert DeLeo will propose legislation calling for two resort casinos and a "limited number of slots at our four racing venues across the state," he told Boston business leaders Thursday morning.

So, 2 casinos and up to 4 slot parlors, two of which would be on the Blue Line. I loved this quote from the Suffolk Race Track peeps, too:

During an October 2009 public hearing on gambling proposals, [Suffolk Downs Chief Operating Officer, Chip Tuttle] said a slot parlor at Suffolk could be operational in months and could be a precursor to a destination resort casino that creates 3,000 permanent jobs.  He said the track's proximity to two MBTA stops and 5,000 parking spaces made it an ideal location for a new gambling facility.

Emphasis mine.  Whether Suffolk Downs says it or not, they know exactly who the bulk of their economic model will come from. Even Treasurer Cahill, who wants a casino bonanza, has admitted that a subway stop to casinos is a bad idea. If this was really going to be a "world class" casino, going after international business, they wouldn't care so much about the T stop. Like all casinos, at least two thirds of the income will come from a small group of problem gamblers in the local populace.... this time, shipped right in through our own T system.  

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My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.

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by: Ryepower12 @ Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 21:46:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Stand up for the Arts, Vote no to Slots/Casinos (6.00 / 1)

Great synopsis of the potential negative impacts that proponents, including legislative leadership and the Governor seem oblivious.  The Cultural Caucus  has brains, heart and hopefully the courage to stick it to the slot shills.

Why would anyone support an industry the sucks wealth out of the local economies (theatre, art venues, small businesses) and transfers the wealth to corporate monopolies?  The only answers can be ignorance and desperation.

The gambling industry is a predatory business that wags the dog....in our case elected officials and taxpayers.

Other areas of the state that have struggled for artistic and downtown revivals like Salem and Springfield will also be negatively impacted.  Let's hear from other Arts leaders - thank you for stepping up.

Slots are the problem, not the solution.

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by: HeartlandDem @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 17:45:15 PM CST

An excellent post (0.00 / 0)

A vote for casinos is not a vote for jobs. A vote for casinos is a vote for the most predatory business in America today.

Les Bernal

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by: StopPredatoryGambling @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 19:08:35 PM CST

Maybe as part of a resort casino bill (6.00 / 2)

there should be a provision rendering "radius restrictions" or similar clauses unenforceable in casino entertainment contracts.  That might help mitigate (though I agree it would not solve) the problem.

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by: David @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 19:13:21 PM CST

or maybe we just shouldn't allow them to begin with? (0.00 / 0)

or, at the very least, include this as part of a complete cost and benefits analysis, which this state has yet to do. The Governor's signed on to that idea, but both Murray and DeLeo refuse to actually give a comprehensive study to this issue. I'd like to know what the impacts will be on local businesses and nonprofits before we vote on the damn bill -- wouldn't you?

Here's a petition for a cost-benefits analysis. I encourage everyone to sign on.

http://www.ipetitions.com/peti...

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My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.

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by: Ryepower12 @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 20:14:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'd worry... (0.00 / 0)

... that mitigation through conditional criteria could be undermined in the future once they get started and are well established through the liberal use of campaign contributions.  That said, I'm agnostic on the issue of casinos in general, but opponents seem to have some decent research behind their opposition (which I haven't reviewed yet in much detail).

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that things are difficult." - Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

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by: Mr Lynne @ Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 16:48:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

What drivel! (3.50 / 2)

You self-righteous moonbats who think who are driving my state Dem party to the brink of defeat...do any of you even know what empirical evidence is?   Have you any concept of what truth is?   Why this incessant drumbeat of misinformation, distortion and fear-mongering among the religious and moral zealots that populate the anti-casino crowd.   Has anyone examined PPAC, the Providence Performing Arts Theatre, which is 10-minutes from Twin River, a RI racino with a 2,000 seat entertainment center, and Foxwoods, which is about 45 minutes from PPAC in southeastern Connecticut?   Are any of you aware of the PPAC experience?   They routinely present Bway shows, fine theatre and big name musicians to a packed house.   How in the world can you say a resort casino in Boston or Springfield or New Bedford is going to be the death knell for a facility in Worcester?   What are you people smoking?   You're the same group of fear-mongerers who claim that our state lottery will take a 10% hit from casinos, but don;t even bother to be aware that the CT Lottery has increased sales revenues for the 13 of the 18 years that Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun have been open --- and you can't even buy a CT lottery ticket at either casino, since they're sovereign territory.   If you moonbats had any idea what you were talking about, had any empirical evidence, then your hysteria might be understandable.   But you don;t even bother to acquaint yourselves with the facts.   And the facts obliterate your specious claims, time and time again.   But when religious and moral zealots embracing political correctness refuse to accept the truth, you become irrelevant.   And BMG continues to propagate mindless blather and prattle that just increases the likelihood that a Dem governor is going to be defeated this November.   I've never encountered a more politically incompetent group of know-nothings, including the Michigan Republicans who voted for Pat Robertson in the 1988 Michigan caucus.   I thought, as a Dem operative for Mike Dukakis in Michigan that year, that I'd encountered the most lunatic fringe of a political party.   But you moonbats mouthing these anti-casino sops are even more bizarre and out of touch with reality than even the most fanatic religious nuts supporting Robertson.    

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by: proudlib @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 19:47:38 PM CST

Thanks for sharing n/t (6.00 / 1)

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by: HeartlandDem @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 20:10:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Bernal's anti-casino crowd takes money from far-right Republican religious zealots (3.00 / 1)

Check it out.   You're in bed with some of the most virulently anti-Democratic, anti-secular right-wing religious groups in the nation.   That's who contributes to Bernal's anti-casino organization.   But you liberal Dems know that, DON'T YOU???  Or have you sacrificed your political ideology for political correctness to such a degree that you're now allied with the Pat Robertsons, Pat Buchanans, and all the other right-wing nutcakes of the Republican fringe?    

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by: proudlib @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 19:51:53 PM CST

Oh, a casino diary, (6.00 / 2)

It's a shocker you decided to post. /sarcasm off

Hilarious that you say Bernal's organization is "virulently anti-Democratic, anti-secular" given that he WORKED for a Democratic Senator for years. Yeah, his organization is a wide-spread nonpartisan effort with people from all over the spectrum joining in, but that just goes to show how very wrong the slot industry is... there aren't very many things that can bring conservatives and progressives together -- but this is one of them. Scares you, huh?

So, when do we get to see you make your disclosure? We know you're bought and paid for by the casino lobby. Your posts are getting very tiresome.  

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My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.

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by: Ryepower12 @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 20:09:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Bernal's anti-casino crowd is made up of all types (6.00 / 3)

And I'm one of them.  I've sat at that table with ultra conservatives, uber progressives, and a rainbow of other political labels in between.  This issue crosses all political persuasions.  I've considered it a rare privilege to witness such polar opposites (and everyone in between) working in concert to stop our state from going down this destructive path, or at the very least, to perform a fresh, independent cost-benefit analysis using current economic conditions and newer available information regarding the slot/casino industry business model and it's costs.  

By the way, I'm curious, are you also over at Red Mass group, screeching like a banshee to everybody there that Les Bernal is funded by some of the most virulently anti-republican, liberal, Godless anti-family nutcases in the nation??

Cross posted from Gladys Kravitz blog

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by: Gladys Kravitz @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 20:21:14 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The Executive Director of The Regent Theater in Arlington said... (6.00 / 1)

...the exact same thing, as he continues to labor to restore that theater, often with his own labor.  Casinos require that the performers they book NOT perform elsewhere.

The Regent's renovator and director, who also helped restore Arlington Children's Theater told me personally he believes that resort casinos would put him out of business.

THANK YOU TROY - YOU GOT IT RIGHT!

Deborah Sirotkin Butler
AmberPaw dot @aol.com

"Failure to plan is planning to fail."
Proverb

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by: AmberPaw @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 21:20:49 PM CST

Once again . . . (0.00 / 0)

We're lumping all possible outcomes into one big bucket. There are differences.
You said:

Casinos require that the performers they book NOT perform elsewhere.

That isn't true in all cases - at least, we've heard from one possible developer that explicitly doesn't want to compete with their local performance venue, as I mentioned above. But my real question is this:

Do you not believe that we could craft legislation, as David suggests above, to prevent this?

The primary argument I hear from those opposed to casinos is that casino operators have allegedly done all these things in other places that have had a negative impact on the surrounding community. I guess my question is, doesn't that give us the upper hand? Isn't this an opportunity to write legislation that explicitly prevents those abuses we don't want to see? As well as tons of other things we can think up that they (the "evil" they) might try?

Or, are you arguing that we are really incapable of taking on the industry? If that's the case, the whole liberal argument about the need for regulating anything goes out the window.

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by: 4Scoreand7 @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 22:02:16 PM CST

[ Parent ]

If only legislation were honored, and loopholes were not engineered (6.00 / 1)

We citizen activists don't have $300,000,000 or so to spend on having full time "legislative counsel" aka lobbyists proposing legislation.  Now, if it WERE a level playing field Mr. Score your comment just might make sense.  It is not.  I, for one, had better get back to work.

As a self employed person I only get paid for work I do; I don't have buckets of money from the Casino industry to rely on.

Deborah Sirotkin Butler
AmberPaw dot @aol.com

"Failure to plan is planning to fail."
Proverb

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by: AmberPaw @ Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 08:54:34 AM CST

[ Parent ]

as a proponant for a resort casino in New Bedford (0.00 / 0)

I have stated in the past that a venue in New Beford must coordinate local businesses in their complex.  Rather than having Johnny Rockets or McDonald's in their resort..have the local shops, restaurants and bars negotiate  and work inside as a sort of a satellite shop.

As for entertainment, New bedford has a great theatre, the Zeiterion Arts Theatre.  If the casino built a "skybridge" over to the local theatre(which is close by) and asked for a negotiated percentage of procedes, I believe it would be a win/win for the community of small businesses in the area.

http://raymedeiros.com/

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by: Ray M @ Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 13:16:39 PM CST

have you ever been to a casino? (0.00 / 0)

The whole idea is to keep people there.  So restaurants, entertainment, shopping, ... all in the casino.  I cant imagine one building a skybridge.

For me the issue is: is he personally attacking other BMGers. I don't think he is, here. He's just using the word "fag" in a way that is insulting to a whole group of people under the rubric of "discussing it." -- Bob Neer  

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by: huh @ Sat Mar 06, 2010 at 19:25:44 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Before the ink is dry (6.00 / 1)

casinos and the gambling industry are already negotiating and wheedling out of the deals they signed, knowing they couldn't abide by the agreements.

Twin Rivers, anyone? Or how about Centaur? That's Steve Norton's baby that agreed to $250 million in a licensing fee and is now whining they need a bailout from the State of Indiana because they can't compete with Riverboats that pre-existed and Centaur filed bankruptcy in another state to retain a license.

Twin Rivers got in bankruptcy court what they wanted -- 24/7 365 gambling that Lincoln, RI residents and voters overwhelmingly opposed. Think about your community. Do you want 24/7 365 traffic and drunks? Lincoln residents didn't.

No theater or restaurants in the New Bedford proposal? Don't bet on it!

This industry has proven elsewhere that it can't be trusted to abide by any agreement and will suck the life out of any community. Find one it hasn't destroyed because I haven't found one in 3 years of looking.

Another evil twin? It sure looks like it with 4Scoreand7, a recent member proclaiming the merits and the 'wonder of it all' and doubting those of us who have done lengthy research.

The attacks by the casino shills tells you they don't have the votes and this is desparation!

The majority of voters simply don't want gambling, don't want slot parlors - only 3% wanted slots at tracks.

Did the Speaker of the House listen?

'Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.' Margaret Mead

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by: JPowell @ Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 16:59:29 PM CST

Casinos (0.00 / 0)

Suck the life out of the surrounding economy. Las Vegas has really no other industry other than gambling and no business will start there because they can't compete with the high wages the casino offer. High wages good, dependence on one industry bad.

I also generally think convention centers and football stadium do the same thing. Though Kraft seems to be doing a much better job.

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by: roarkarchitect @ Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 21:07:57 PM CST

[ Parent ]

anything "Big Box" (0.00 / 0)

wipes out the little guys and rarely - if ever - produces a net growth of jobs, when compared to the jobs they wiped out.

Kraft has done something very few in the NFL have been able to do thus far (but I guarantee others will try to copy when building new stadiums, if possible), but anytime big box stores move in, it's very tough for small businesses nearby, with implications effecting entire regions. Just look at malls and what they did to Downtown areas in a giant radius around the mall -- it used to be that people would go to their local downtown area to shop, then they started traveling 30-45 minutes (or more) to the mall.

Now even malls have become a victim of their own success, with stores like Walmart having a far greater impact than malls could have ever dreamed of -- there's been maybe one large mall built in America over the past decade (well, it was supposed to be finished in October, not sure if it's open yet), because neither they nor most local downtown areas can compete with the Walmarts of the world.  

Casinos, for their part, are the Big Box versions of entertainment (complete with their own mini malls) -- and like other Big Boxes, by driving the competition out of business, actually limit both jobs and choices for consumers, not expand them.

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My thoughts are mine and mine alone. They should not be considered representative of any other organization, group or person - save me.

~Ryan.

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by: Ryepower12 @ Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 22:14:56 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Las Vegas? (0.00 / 0)

At its genesis, Las Vegas was in the middle of the dessert with the only industry in the state, mining. It began with drug money, money laundering and other crimes, and has evolved as a state owned and operated by casinos.

Nevada prides itself on lean and mean government which has among the highest dropout rates, lowest college graduation per capita, poor reading scores, lowest insured children, highest suicides, and a host of other 'who wants it?' statistics.

High wages? I'd love to know where you gathered that fact because I've never seen it.

There's a great book about the history of Las Vegas that's worth the read if only to shed some insight into how we got where we are with one industry that provides nothing of value controlling the political process, "The Money and the Power," by Sally Denton and Roger Morris.

From what I've seen of the gambling industry, you can't allow yourself to be blinded by appearances of propserity when quality of life issues, such as the above are so dismal.  

'Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.' Margaret Mead

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by: JPowell @ Fri Mar 05, 2010 at 19:22:23 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Reno is a contrast (0.00 / 0)

Is a surprising interesting college town, small town feel - which from my understanding is  always fighting with the casino interests.

My personal feeling is the casino jobs stink, the wages are fairly good but the casinos are really big malls with some nasty undercurrents. Las Vegas is not a place you would want to raise a family or Atlantic City.

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by: roarkarchitect @ Sat Mar 06, 2010 at 03:39:56 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Protect us from any competition because we're elitist! (0.00 / 0)

"Protect us from competition," said the Worcester area arts guy.

Interesting.  

"I don't want any more restaurants in Worcester," said the owner of a Worcester-area Burger King.

"I don't want any more supermarkets in my town," said the manager of a Worcester-area Stop & Shop.

"I don't want any more car dealerships in my town," said a Worcester-area Ford dealer.

"And I don't want any casinos or racinos in the entire state, from Ptown to Pittsfield," said the Worcester arts guy.

Interesting.   Very interesting.

   

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by: proudlib @ Sat Mar 06, 2010 at 18:59:33 PM CST

Ray Medeiros, how dare you talk with common sense!!! (0.00 / 0)

Ray, don't waste your time writing about legitimate and thoughtful initiatives that will enhance casino or racino local benefits.

You're preaching to a biased group of politically-correct religious, moral and common scolds who cannot accept any ecnomic development initiative that does not pass their "cultural smell test."

You see, these are the very kind of alleged Democrats who give nutcakes like Howie Carr fuel for his right-wing rantings.

Their view is that unless you have a Harvard degree, live in  a tony gentrified community, and frequent the politically-correct meetings, then you aren't educated and sophisticated enough to render your own judgments on public policy.

Ray, the former effete, cultured and moneyed New Bedfordites who migrated to Padanaram are in shock over your distasteful suggestions.

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by: proudlib @ Sat Mar 06, 2010 at 19:13:35 PM CST